Jack Kavanagh (00:00)
Welcome to the SaaS operators, three CEOs from some of the fastest growing software brands and me trying to get as much information out of them as possible. We have Rishabh, co-founder of Fermat, Jeremiah, the founder of Kno and Stamped.io and Zach Murray, the founder of Foreplay. I think this is the only conversation about how to solve thousands of go-to-market problems at the click of a button. This isn't about how to sell more of the Blueberry Belly Blaster 2000, more t-shirts or cosmetics. It's about how to build the engine to support, upgrade, and accelerate the best businesses, whether that's a direct-to-consumer product like, I don't know, Ozempik popcorn, or maybe a dating app for, I don't know, French ballroom dancers. I'm excited, guys. Automation is exciting. AI is exciting. DTC brands, political candidates, pharmaceutical companies, teams at businesses of all shapes and sizes are frothing at the mouth for more AI.
So let's get started.
Zach Murray (00:54)
Jeremiah made a tweet pretty much saying, I think some podcasts came out, like the Finance Operators podcast, and I think you quote tweeted it being like, what you guys really want is the SAAS operator. So we're in a stream of everybody copying each other and then just strapping on whatever business you have and then operators. But, I think before we actually started recording, you some like really interesting insights about like the positioning of like businesses in our category and the customers that we sell to.
I think it'd be cool if, you know, you can like open the curtain a bit and be like, this is why I think that this sort of podcast is valuable.
Jeremiah Prummer (01:34)
Yeah, I think so. Hey, you know, a little bit humorous to be like, Hey, what y'all really want is the SAAS operators podcast. And I think it's, you know, it's like, I, what I'm hoping for here is that we can have a little bit of like a tell all sort of approach, right? Where it's like, Hey, if we can really, to your point, Zach, like pull back the curtain a little bit. Are you all what actually goes on? Like for us, we are at the end of the day, business owners and operators who are trying to do the same thing as the customers we serve. And so this is an interesting world where.
Jack (01:41)
Yeah.
Jeremiah Prummer (02:04)
You know, we were B2B and we're serving brands for the most part that are, that are B2C, right? And so the B2C world is different. and from the B2B world, but at the end of the day, we're all trying to accomplish the same thing, which is that we care about things like profit margins and we care about things like, well, or should maybe not a profit when you, when you got a VC money to spend, but ultimately someday profit, right?
And we care about unit economics and we care about, you know, the way that we build teams and, caring for our customers and doing a good job with that customer support and service and all that. Right. So we have all of the same core problems in our businesses. And I think what's really interesting as, you know, my hope is that we can actually kind of dive into some of that and explain a little bit of like why things happen the way that they do. And, I don't, this is not fair to say of everybody, but I do think there's a bit of a sentiment of like, SAAS is just out to get you if you're a business owner. And that certainly is not what I'm trying to do. And I don't know. I don't want to speak for everybody here, but I'm gonna assume that we're not just out there trying to get everybody right. Like that's not the goal. The goal is actually like help your business, grow your business.
Rishabh (03:19)
I hate interrupting, but I want to just add one thing. It's like, that serves no one because it just reduces our TAM, you know? Like if you think of us as pure capitalists, like the best thing we can do is expand our TAM, not contract it. like, you know, you don't have to trust anything other than capitalism to believe that, so.
Jeremiah Prummer (03:25)
Out of life. Yep.
Yeah, if you suck every business dry, you have no customers
Zach Murray (03:44)
Actually an interesting segue into the approach of building software, which I think there are two very different routes. And I think the approaches about how you grow them and how you go to market are very different of bootstrapping versus raising VC. I mean, I'm a steadfast bootstrapper for, would say, more emotional reasons than logic reasons. I read a book before I started Foreplay. I had sold an e-commerce brand that I was running.
It wasn't like an outcome that I wanted. And I read a book that I think it was, the title was just called optionality. And the whole premise of the book is like, you only make decisions that give you the most amount of options in the future. And I like lived my life based on this book for like two years. And now I essentially I've lived my life with too much optionality to where now it's like really hard to make decisions. and so I think I've like over like swung on the optionality and like personal and business.
But, I'm super curious about what was your guys' path in terms of building the business and funding it at the beginning? And what decision-making did you have in that piece?
Rishabh (04:57)
I think Jeremiah said two things that are important. One is eventual profitability and unit economics, which answers the VC question. ultimately, there's only two reasons why you should raise venture capital. The first is that the unit economics of the business are strong, even though the initial profitability is weak, meaning it takes a lot of upfront capital in order to be able to build the thing, whatever that that thing may be, and for whatever reason.
And over time, it's like paying itself off because the unit economics, every time you sell one of the things, it pays off that quote unquote debt that you incur by actually raising venture money. And in some ways, venture money actually literally acts like debt because it gets paid first.
Right. So that's one bucket. And the second bucket is that you are going to be misaligned with your investors unless you are building something that can drive a very big outcome. And that is, I think, often the actual biggest delta between Bootstrap and VC, which is like, do you legitimately believe that there is a multi-hundred million, multi-billion dollar revenue opportunity in the end state?
Or do you legitimately believe that there is a multi-million dollar opportunity in terms of revenue in the end state? And both are awesome for the founder of either outcome. so like, this is like in truly no way in judging, but you just have to decide like which one of those are you building?
So that way you can actually serve everybody correctly, serve the investor correctly, serve your team correctly, serve the customer correctly. Because if you're not actually like deliberate about that decision, you're going to end up with like all sorts of perversion, right? And so I think, I think that's actually ultimately what it is. Like I actually tried to build two businesses bootstrapped. This is 10 years ago now.
I remember like what that style of business building is like and yeah, it is like fundamentally different than a venture type of business building. So you're way more risk on when you're venture business building because you have debt basically.
Zach Murray (07:25)
Yeah. Did you guys, did you guys have product market fit before you raised your first bit of money? Or is it raised from, from like day one?
Rishabh (07:38)
We raised before we had a company, like there was nothing incorporated. It was like literally a slide deck or actually less than a slide deck was the first investment capital. And then the second investment capital was before a dollar of revenue. And then the third investment capital was when we finally had some revenue.
Zach Murray (08:00)
What was your vision at that moment of raising without product or without a company? What did you raise on?
Rishabh (08:07)
Honestly, I raised on a problem statement. Like, in 2020, Apple announced that you're no longer going to be able to track people from app to website. And I was working at this company called LiveRamp. And sort of my pitch was I know this space very well, because, I'm at LiveRamp and I understand exactly how the mechanics are going to break.
And like people don't realize it yet. Like the market did not correct for it until the beginning of 22. And so you could see that people didn't realize how impactful this change was gonna be in 21. And so I just like told people like, guys, like the market's gonna get demolished. are like, tax are gonna skyrocket. Facebook is gonna lose a ton of equity value. And then that happened. And so I raised money because the problem statement clarity was very high.
I think it's so different than bootstrapping. mean, Jeremiah is like also a lifelong bootstrapper. Yeah.
Jeremiah Prummer (09:07)
Yeah, I feel like what's nice here is my experience is also a little bit different because it's...
I don't even know the best way to describe it, but essentially, so no was started from the context of the marketing agency. So it was bootstrapped, but it was like having seed funding, essentially. Right. So like we, so Pierson Krass, I think a couple you probably know him. He and I've been friends for a long time. We go way back to when he owned a brand and I was doing a work in the WooCommerce world, like I don't even know 10, 12 years ago. And so he owned Lunar Solar Group and we decided that we wanted to build a company from within Lunar Solar Group.
So he basically funded everything out of the agency. And so we went from, you know, they had like internally some tech that they kind of worked on. And so I came in and took all of that, got it ready to go to market. And we spent a year and half essentially with the agency funding what we were building. And then we actually went out and looked at raising money.
And I think what was what neither of us really understood at that time was the unit economics and what a VC is looking for in that context. And so I think, I, maybe it's unfair to say Pierson didn't understand that, but I didn't understand it for sure. And so, you know, our core plan that we were selling was a hundred dollars a month. And you go and you talk to a VC and they're like, well, that's $1,200 a year. That's, that's never going to get to the point where this is a billion dollar company. And I remember chatting with a VC.
And I mean, she was great. not trying to this is not a negative statement, but she just she said, like, hey, I think you guys have a hundred million dollar business here. If you never go out and raise money, I can definitely see that happening. I just don't see how you get to a billion dollars. And I was like, well, that's fair. I don't either. And I didn't have like a path to that. And so ultimately, I think what what I got in that process of because we didn't like formally raise, but we put together a deck. went out and talked to some people just to kind of gauge interest.
And there was interest in what we were doing, but not at the prices we were trying to charge for it and I had somebody else who actually, who's in this space and who you all would probably know. And he was like, dude, you should just go find a hundred customers that will pay $2,500 a month. That's more interesting to me. If you can find that. That's the type of thing you can go raise VC money on. And, and I was like, yeah, but that's not what I'm trying to do. Right. So, we got a lot of clarity there. And so we, ended up we were trying to think of like, okay, well, do we reorient all of this to actually go after that type of an ACV, right?
Where we're charging 10K plus per year. And if not, what does that look like? And then we ended up connecting with, actually I just realized I'm wearing a WeCommerce, which is part of Tiny now. But at the time WeCommerce was basically a public holding company focused on e-commerce SaaS. And so I ended up connecting with them and we sold to them because we realized that like what...
Like in that context, it's more of like a P model, right? Where it's like, how do we build profitable businesses? And they're looking at the longterm. And so in that model, they're like, you know, if we can build a business to 5, 10, 20 million a year in revenue and have it be operated, say a 20 to 30% profit margin, we're happy with that. That's a good outcome. And we're not, we don't care about going at it after a billion dollars because we're going to buy a hundred businesses and that's how we get to a billion dollars. Right.
And so I think it's a little bit. It's a little bit of an in-between where it's like, weren't fully bootstrapped, but it was a little bit more of like a bootstrap sort of outcome that we were chasing on this context where it's like, Hey, if we, you know, if we think this is a path to 20 million a year in revenue, that's great. Like there doesn't have to be anything beyond that for this to be successful. And that to your point should like, that's still a great business, right? There's nothing wrong with a business like that, but it is not a VC business. and I think like my pride when I first, you know, when I first started hearing the term lifestyle business, really didn't like that. because I, want to build things that live beyond my involvement with them too. Right.
So like when I think of lifestyle business, think of like, okay, well, this is just like a thing that like, nobody really cares about, but I don't think it has to mean that. it just, think in that context, to be clear, I think it's a slightly derogatory way of talking about it. but I also understand what a VC is saying when they're like, Hey, we, want to put money into something that's going to have that path to a billion dollar exit. you know, the reality is 99% of businesses don't have that path.
Zach Murray (13:40)
Yeah. I always laugh at like the derogatory, like lifestyle piece. Cause I think almost like 50 % of the use, use of that word in, or that's that statement in a derogatory sense is like at least, yeah, at least 50 % of it is like VC backed founders kind of like coping with the fact that they can't see the white light at the end of the tunnel. And they're like, like it's just a lifestyle business. It's just like, okay, bro, like a couple million dollars a year in EBITDA is like pretty good lifestyle. Like what's your lifestyle?
And so, but I do think it's, is like, you know, like, it's like, like how much of that is, you know, or like selling, you know, I think the thing I was always.
Rishabh (14:10)
That's funny. That's so funny.
I think you're right, by the way. I do think it's founder cope. Yeah, I see that totally, by the way. I can't disagree with that.
Zach Murray (14:24)
Yeah. And I think like, I always thought I would read these business stories of people that would have a ton of like outward success or like public facing success. And then you hear like, they actually, there was a crazy prep stack and they came out with like a couple hundred thousand dollars and they paid themselves a hundred thousand dollars a year. it's like, yeah, like building businesses is, is, is really fun. Like I really like it. But if you took all of the money out of building businesses, like I definitely wouldn't do it.
There were some people that say that, like, oh, I would do this if I made no money. It's like, I wouldn't, you know, completely transparently. Like if there wasn't an incentive to have like a better lifestyle or to leapfrog into like the next thing that I want to do, or like give me resources to do the next thing I would want to do, I wouldn't do it. Like I started foreplay with like one like very specific small goal. And it was like, I just wanted $10,000 a month of free cashflow.
And it was like, at the time I had an agency and it was like maybe making, I don't know, like 50 to 75 grand a month in cashflow. And it was like, I just wanted like a little thing that I didn't need to talk to a client and get something signed for that just like paid for some stuff in my lifestyle. like it's the business now has become more than that, but I do think it's like still kind of like in our DNA, which is like, yeah, like we're building this business to like not go, not, not provide resources to go onto the next thing, but like to provide some sort of outcome that I would consider positive, you know?
Rishabh (15:59)
Wait, by the way, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that the business is for every dollar in producing more than a dollar out. Like that is good for the economy. Like, you know, that's totally, that's totally, that's like a totally reasonable thing, by the way. But yeah, I think that, like, generally speaking, if I were, if somebody were to ask me like, Hey, would you recommend to someone to bootstrap?
Zach Murray (16:12)
Right.
Rishabh (16:29)
Or to do the VC funding route, I really think that it's like, the second you're asking that question is already the wrong question because the problem is like, you're asking an external source to tell you what to do, whereas like it's actually entirely based on your goals. Like there's no way for some external party to tell you what to do in this context, right? Like I don't know your goals.
Zach Murray (16:59)
Does anybody have any like very specific goals that they have with in regards to like what they're doing right now?
Rishabh (17:05)
I mean, I can tell you mine, like, and why it sort of led me down, like raising capital, even before having like a product shape, basically. Like, I basically wanted to build something that had the widest possible footprint against this problem statement of you can no longer track people on the internet.
And so my simple logic was this is like the size of this problem is extremely large and it is highly unlikely that I am actually going to meaningfully make a difference to this problem unless I raise capital. And that was it. Like that was the entirety of the motivation.
And then, and this part happens to be a personal belief, which is I think that people who raise venture money, candidly need to have a better like next best alternative than people who bootstrap. Because you have to assume it's going to like when you start it, you have to assume that the likelihood of failure statistically is high, even though you believe that the business is going to succeed. And so what that means is like for me, at least I knew I was hireable, right? Like I knew what my salary was going to be if the company failed.
And so like, and I knew what my personal runway was at the time that I made the decision to do this. And so like, that was part of the calculus, like very, clearly when I was making that decision.
Jeremiah Prummer (18:43)
That's an interesting concept, like the personal runway thing. That's something I think about quite a bit. So I started my first startup in college, bootstrapped. Everything I did was bootstrapped up until this kind of hybrid bootstrap funded by an agency thing. And the challenge I always ran into is I didn't have any money.
And so when things start to go wrong, it's just like, like I had to stop what I was doing and go get a job like that. I kept running into that problem because I had no backstop. And I think that's a an interesting piece of this because I actually think in the one potential advantage to raising BC can be that if you don't have a backstop, it at least gives you a shot at making a go of it if you are trying to tackle a bigger problem. Like there's some types of businesses you can just bootstrap.
And it's like, Hey, I literally don't need any cash for this. Or like, maybe I'm going to do it, on the side of my day job or whatever that is. You get to a certain point where if you don't have a personal runway, there has to be some sort of cash to make it happen. So like for me, a big reason why, when Pierson was like, Hey, do you want to do this thing? A big reason why I said yes, it's because I was going to get a salary because I was not at a point in my life where I could actually afford to work without a salary.
And so yeah, I don't get a massive piece of the outcome necessarily, but I get a salary, I get to build something I love, and I get a piece of whatever happens in that context, right? And so for me, that was actually, it's interesting because my point here, I guess, is that I think the VC can potentially give you some of that too, depending on what you're trying to build. And I think that that's an important piece of it. And then, yeah, as I going back to your question in terms of like my personal, like my goals and what it is that I'm trying to do.
I've been in e-commerce in some capacity or another since 2012, building initially in the WooCommerce ecosystem, had a brand for a little bit, did agency work. So I've done a bunch of different things. And then I also come from a context of I grew up in, in a family business where my parents literally had a physical retail store. And so I've always had this like really strong interest in better understanding, like who people are and why they buy. So that's a piece of the equation.
And that was ultimately like, the impetus for no being the thing that we built. this is Pierson and I both had a decade each of a decade plus of experience in the space. And there's some interesting problems that you run into where you just don't have a ton of context around like why people are buying. And you, can actually, you can see all the order data, right? But like, it's just kind of numbers. It's not like actual like people that you feel attached to. So to me, like that's still a problem I'm trying to solve.
And I think like, I mean, I'm five years in on that now. And I think another five years probably still won't be solved. And I think it's like such a massive problem. I actually do think that the potential, if you find a good solution in this is actually a billion dollar company, but I could never tell a VC how I would get there. If that makes sense.
Like I didn't have a plan of like, here is the thing that I'm going to go build to go do this. Cause I don't even know what that thing is. I still don't fully know what that thing is, to be honest. I'm still working towards it, still trying to solve it. So like that problem statement I am very passionate about. But then the other thing I will say is for me, I think that I really care about is learning how to manage an organization. So not just like in the past, I've built things from zero to one. I've done that multiple times.
And so recently I took over another business that tiny slash we commerce own stamped, which is in the same space, solving a lot of the same problems as no commerce. And the big reason why I said yes to that was one, there's some product fit to there's a lot of opportunity to kind of like take the vision that I had and accelerated more. and then the third thing though is like, and this is where personally I'm really interested in this. I get to manage 75 people now. And I wanted to know what that would be like.
And to actually like get to experience that because I think someday down the road, what I'm trying to answer for myself is like, am I a CEO or am I an entrepreneur? And I don't actually know the answer to that question yet. And that's a big piece of what I'm trying to unlock is like, which, which of those am I? I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. Can I actually take that next step to be a CEO? To be determined. That's my title, but we'll see how it actually plays out over time.
Zach Murray (23:12)
I have zero.
Jack (23:12)
I'm interested, what's the... What's the distinction in your mind between an entrepreneur and a CEO?
Jeremiah Prummer (23:19)
Yeah, in my mind, it's like, okay, so the, and I think all of us are this way, right? Like it's, can look at the world and say, here's a problem. And I, I, if I don't know the solution, I feel very confident that I can go find a solution to that problem. And like, to me, that's an entrepreneur. CEO is more running an organization, right? Like, how do you, how do you implement systems, teams? How do you set vision?
Like for me, that's a big piece of like, how do I internally know what I'm chasing and know the vision that I'm after. How do I actually effectively communicate that to, in this context, 75 people, but someday maybe it's 500 people? I think that's the difference to me. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I see it.
Zach Murray (24:02)
I think there's actually like an emotional difference between the two people. And then you could like switch like your emotional state. Like, I think the biggest difference is that you can hire a CEO and you can't hire an entrepreneur. Like if you're a business that's like, we need an entrepreneur in our business. It's like, good luck. Like you have to just like acquire something or something, you know? And then the other piece is like, I think a CEO can look at a problem and then just the existence of the problem is like enough for them to be excited enough to like pursue it and solve it.
Jeremiah Prummer (24:14)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (24:30)
Whereas I think an entrepreneur is like much more connected emotionally to it's like, if they don't care that much about that problem, they actually really don't care if it gets solved all that much. Whereas like a CEO, it's like, this, business needs to figure this out. they can, that's enough for them to go. And I think attack it with like as much, you know, velocity as possible. Whereas an entrepreneur, if they don't care about it, they're like, I don't care about this. Like.
Jeremiah Prummer (24:41)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (24:56)
And so I think it's almost like an emotional, I, I, I don't resonate with like the title of CEO, like at all. like it makes me like actually uncomfortable. so I have like zero desire to like become a CEO or like, I think my biggest like fear would be like a public market CEO. Like I couldn't even imagine that. Whereas like I have friends who are entrepreneurs are like, that's my dream. I'm like, buddy, like take it. so it's yeah, that's cool.
Jeremiah Prummer (25:13)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (25:21)
Was that always like an ambition or a curiosity of becoming a CEO or was it like a shift?
Jeremiah Prummer (25:25)
I think it's always been there for me. My, like, again, my parents, so when I was six, they opened like this little health food store. So it started like this little tiny, I think it was like a thousand square feet. Um, and then ultimately my dad employees, I think like 60 people or something like that. And it's, it's like a whole foods at this point. Um, so it's like this gradual process.
And I remember as a kid, I started working there every summer through the school year and stuff. I was always like, man, I could do this better. I could do this better. Like this was, like, I wasn't that passionate about the thing necessarily, but I was passionate about like doing this thing. And that was like a lot of arrogance to be clear, as a, know, 16 year old thinking I would know better. But I think that was, if I look back, like even at that point, I had a little bit of that. And then, you know, I remember.
Zach Murray (25:55)
Yeah
Jeremiah Prummer (26:13)
Yeah, it was in college. I watched the social network, the Mark Zuckerberg Facebook. It's not really documentary, like a, you know, Hollywood dramatization. Yeah. And I watched that with a couple of friends and then it's like, man, I'm going to be the next Mark Zuckerberg. And that was like my ambition at that point in time when I was 20 years old or whatever it was.
Zach Murray (26:23)
Dramatization.
Jeremiah Prummer (26:37)
And you know, that's obviously didn't materialize never and actually I kind of hope it never does I don't want that necessarily but yeah, I think like that idea like I want to move beyond just like solving a problem to like running an organization is something I'm always interested in But I haven't had that opportunity.
Rishabh (26:54)
Yeah, I think by the way, for what little is worth, I'm pretty sure that movie inspired like an entire generation of founders. it's like pretty...
Jeremiah Prummer (27:01)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (27:03)
On my Spotify wrapped every year, the most popular playlist is the social network soundtrack. when I'm working, listen to it and it's like, it actually is just like a really good work music. But then every once in a while, you'll be going through your day and you'll find a problem. And then you'll be like, oh, and then it would be like the perfect time in a song where you're like, oh, this was actually like an amazing scene in that movie. And so I listened to it probably like at least three hours a day. It's just this soundtrack. Yeah.
Jeremiah Prummer (27:30)
Dude, that's hilarious. I'm gonna have to check it out. I have not listened to the soundtrack, but now I'm curious.
Jack (27:37)
I haven't even watched the movie, it sounds like I need to watch this movie.
Rishabh (27:37)
Yeah, yeah.
Zach Murray (27:39)
it's good. It's really good. The other the other one that like always fires me up. Have you guys watched We Crashed? The WeWork dramatization. like amazing soundtrack. I've actually showed it to a couple other people like I'll like meet a girl and be like, we should watch this and they hate it. And I'm like, I think I actually objectively this is really bad television. But because it's so connected to who I am as a person, I'm just like, nothing gets me more fired up than this than this stupid show.
Rishabh (28:04)
Yeah, same here. Same here. Same here. Yeah. Yeah, I love all of those shows. The Uber show, the We Crashed one. Yeah, they're all, yeah. And they're all inspiring, basically. Like, don't, yeah, I don't walk away feeling like, wow, that was bad TV. Like, I walk away feeling inspired.
Jeremiah Prummer (28:19)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. How about you, Zach? What's your, yeah, what would you say your goals are?
Zach Murray (28:25)
I have this very specific goal of $50 million liquid by 30, because it would be undeniable that I would then die with 100. And the way that I got to that...
Rishabh (28:40)
You're not counting on a very long life, but yeah.
Zach Murray (28:44)
I'm saying, I'm saying it's, yeah, undeniable, undeniable that I get, I would get to a hundred if I got 50 at 30. the way that I got to that was when I was like a kid, I was always just like, I want to, I want to be like a millionaire. Like that was what I said I wanted to be when I grow up. And then when I like grew up and I realized it wasn't that much money, I was like, well, I have to like, I have to like, I have to reframe like what my childhood belief like, what did I believe that was as a child?
Jeremiah Prummer (28:44)
He said undeniable.
Zach Murray (29:12)
And then I was like, if I get a hundred exit, I'll a hundred percent get to whatever that feeling is that I thought it was as a child. And so was like, I'll just take my childhood goal and like multiply it by a hundred. and then reverse engineered from there. It's completely like not based around like lifestyle or logic. It's like, it's just like, like, what did that like little kid think that was? And then like, what is the reality now? And like, that's pretty much it. like
Jeremiah Prummer (29:35)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (29:39)
Outside of like monetary goals, like I really, I really want to like just live a radically different life throughout my entire life. I remember like when I was a kid, like I was always really enamored with, there's like a history class where someone said the word polymath and then it like, I was like, what the heck is that? And then I was just like Googling stuff about polymaths and it was like, wow, what a cool thing.
And I was like, this doesn't seem like it's like a real thing anymore in society. But I was like, well, how could I like build my life to potentially be the closest thing to like whatever that is? And so like my goals after four player, like I want to become a fine artist and like, and like, just like Chuck, check that box of just like, yeah, like I built a software company and I sold like a piece of art for whatever, like $10 million or something. and there's like a bunch of other like random things I would want to do. Like I.
Jeremiah Prummer (30:23)
Let's go.
Zach Murray (30:36)
I, when I was in grade seven, had a math teacher tell me I wasn't good enough at math to be an architect. And like, that's what I wanted to be when I was in grade seven. And so it's like, like I want to also potentially just like build some sort of like, like one property that is like regarded as like an architectural, like masterpiece and stuff. like, that's like generally like my goals is just like, well, how can I just be like the most like dynamic and interesting person to myself?
And yeah. And right now I'm saving ads. So.
Jack (31:10)
Hahaha.
Jeremiah Prummer (31:10)
Yeah.
Rishabh (31:11)
HA!
Jeremiah Prummer (31:13)
I so I think this is really interesting though, because I wonder how because I guess I wouldn't describe it in some terms, but I feel a lot of that too, right? Like I, I like to play basketball. I kind of have a dream of like playing pro basketball at some point, even though I'm like mid thirties now. You know, what could that look like for me to be in my 40 not in the NBA? That's clearly out of reach, but you know, ice cube has his three on three league.
Like there's options potentially, or maybe I have to go and start my own league and pay for it. have no idea. But, you know, like that would be kind of cool or, you know, I think writing a book would be cool. Like there's a bunch of different things like that, that I kind of want to do as well. They're like totally disconnected from the work that I do. but would be fun things to do. And I wonder like, if that's a really, I feel like that's probably a common thing among entrepreneurs going back to your point about entrepreneurship and. You know, the problem solving things that you're passionate about versus just solving problems.
I think that is an interesting, like that may be a very common thing. I have no idea what you guys think about that.
Zach Murray (32:16)
Yeah. Yeah. On the sports front, I found, was like, you know, my friend were once like, Oh, like, I wonder if we could still make it to the Olympics. And it's like actually a hundred percent possible. So like the most, it like based on like my research, my most likely chance of making it to the Olympics would be on the Canadian bobsled team. So like bobsledders peak, like mid to late thirties, early forties and like, I looked up kind of like all of like their strength benchmarks and it's actually there's not much skill, it's pure power output and speed and almost no skill.
Rishabh (32:16)
I think it's extremely common. Yeah, I think it's extremely common.
Jeremiah Prummer (32:25)
Yes.
Zach Murray (32:44)
And so it's a very quantifiable thing that you could improve at that stage of life. And so that's also a random one. It was like, if I could make the Canadian bobsled team and just get the track suit, wow, what a cool thing to have framed in your living room. It's like, yeah, I went to the Olympics.
Jeremiah Prummer (33:06)
That's so funny. Okay, so my my oldest daughter is four. She was three at the last Olympics. And she said, Daddy, I want to I want to win a gold medal with you at the Olympics. And so I immediately started looking up like, what could I do when I'm in my 50s? There's not very many options. It's like, it's like, it's like shooting an archery and stuff. But I'm like, hey, I mean, if that's what you want to do, let's go. Let's go find some some sport and do it together. It'd be fun.
Zach Murray (33:35)
I met an account manager at Gorgias at a dinner like maybe two or three weeks ago. And this came up and then she found out that she's really just like naturally good at shooting. Like she went to a gun range for the first time in her like mid twenties or late twenties. And like, she was like shooting the people like you've never done this before. Like you're shooting like the topic 90 percentile. I've never, never shot a gun. So she's like now looking into like shooting in the Olympics being like, I could like potentially do this. Like I have like a ton of just like natural skill here.
Jeremiah Prummer (34:02)
Yeah, I love it.
Rishabh (34:08)
That's ridiculous.
Jack (34:09)
I think there's something interesting in what you were saying a second ago about the Olympics versus business and solving problems. Because I don't know if you're Olympic gold medalist shooter or Canadian bobsledder, you're not solving any problems. But you're doing something great. You're the best at something. So maybe there's a through line there. It's not solving a problem. It's being the greatest.
Rishabh (34:33)
No, no, no, no, no. I think the other thing that we're not saying out loud is a lot of founders, whether you're a SaaS founder or e-com, it doesn't matter. You have a chip on your shoulder, you have an ego and you have some childhood trauma and you put those things together. And really what you're doing is you're trying to prove a point to someone all the time. That's what's happening. That's what you're hearing.
Jeremiah Prummer (34:54)
Yeah.
Rishabh (34:59)
And so, and I think it's okay to admit that out loud. Yeah, so that's sort of what's actually happening.
Jeremiah Prummer (35:02)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (35:07)
I think it's more valuable to admit it out loud to yourself because like you could have this like thing inside of you that's driving you to do a bunch of stuff. And if you're not fully acknowledging the goal, you don't have as laser of a focus. like the value of like, like my my like Mr. O'Brien, my seventh grade math teacher. Fuck you. I built a crazy architectural masterpiece.
Like if I'm that pointed about it, like, you know, it's like very specific. And so I actually think like becoming like fully aware of it, like this is what I want to do. And this is why I want to do it. It's like, it like serves you in actually doing that. I'm like super like grateful too, that I have like a bunch of random chips on my shoulder. Cause it was like, I just think it like makes my life fun. Like it seems like a game now. Like I couldn't imagine not having all of these like weird side quests on the map when I open up like my personal OS, you know, I'm like super happy, like people are complaining about it.
Jeremiah Prummer (35:49)
Yeah, that's it.
Zach Murray (36:01)
I'm just like, what are you doing? Like you have the best, this is the best. Like you're like gifted all of these like things to potentially go out and like solve or do and like, yeah, whatever emotionally, sometimes it might not be great, but it's like, even if you didn't have these things, like you're going to still have like emotional issues. Like there's no like easy way through life, right? like a lot of my like, friends that grew up wealthy with very successful parents. They have their own version of that, which I do not envy at all.
Jeremiah Prummer (36:44)
Yeah, I actually, I'm not a psychologist or anything. So take this with a grain of salt. But I do think there's something in us as humans where if we don't have some sort of problem, we're chasing some sort of like chip on our shoulder or whatever that thing is. I think we create problems.
I very much feel like I, yeah, I feel fortunate in that way to always feel like I have to be driving towards something from like a, you know, an achievement standpoint, because if I wasn't, if that wasn't what I was chasing, I don't know, maybe I'd be, I don't even know what I'd be doing. I'd be sitting on my couch complaining about something else.
Rishabh (37:20)
People think I'm crazy for doing this, but there's like a small set of things in the company that I am extremely decisive about and nobody else gets to decide. One of which is what does our office look like? And it can never look nice because the problem is that the second the office looks nice and it looks comfortable and things like that, you think that you're not battling the outside world and competitors and status quo and all of those things because it's like, yeah, like we've made it, like we have plenty of money and people start infighting. And so like this office, for example, it has like a window pane missing. It's single pane glass, no HVAC, it's cold in the winter, it's like all sorts of insanity and people are just like, man, Rishi, when are we going to get a nicer office? And I'm like, you don't get it. We're never getting a nicer office.
Zach Murray (38:10)
I wish I could be like that. I'm like, I'm like a bit of like an aesthetics junkie where, where like, if something didn't look nice, I couldn't work because like, would be like, I want to make that nice. But I wish I could be like, but like, there's like a, I mean, I think I might have like my own version of this. Like, like right now, like I have like two big windows right here, but the blinds are always closed.
Jeremiah Prummer (38:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Murray (38:36)
And everyone's like, like work with natural light. like, no, like, but work with, I can see a sunny day, you know, my life is too good. Like I like close it. I'm like, it's like dark in here and there's like, it's like my lair, but it needs to be like clean and like designed well. I wish I could have that other level of environment creation that maybe creates more urgency. But for me, like the nice design is like, I almost feel like it's a good scene for whatever I want to do, if that makes sense.
Jeremiah Prummer (39:17)
Yeah.
Rishabh (39:17)
Totally. Yeah, we have, I'll just point it out. We have like folding tables and folding chairs in like the common area, which is like the first thing we purchased, like literally from Costco. And somebody asked me like, hey, can we upgrade the furniture? And I, yeah, of course I said no.
Zach Murray (39:22)
No. That's awesome. I wish I was like that. we have folding chairs at our like team lunch table. When I decided to get folding chairs, my thing was like, I want to find the coolest folding chairs. So we have these like acrylic folding chairs that are all different colors. Cause I'm like, this is the coolest version of folding chair. And I guys, probably spent like 15, 20 minutes like researching them. Like what's the best folding chair? Like found and like.
There was a level of gratification that I was like, these are cool folding chairs.
Rishabh (40:04)
I was going say, I feel like this episode is just like, get into the mind of a SaaS operator, as opposed to actually talking about SaaS. So it feels like future episodes are going to be actually talking about SaaS. But it's like, hey guys, like this is just how we think. Like this is our mindset. This is our mind state. This is what we're trying to do. This is how we try to think about things. Which is super interesting. It's just, yeah, it's just a different set of topics than I guess we had planned for, which in some ways is good, we'll of course like it'll keep iterating and we'll see how it, how it, where we land.
Zach Murray (40:38)
Yeah, I think maybe we're coming up on an hour. think it would be like a good time to maybe, maybe we dive in on like a rapid fire of like one of these topics we had, which was, you know, product led versus sales led. So, I mean, like when you're building a software company, it's like, okay, one, you need to build the thing. And then I believe harder, you need to like get people to use the thing. and like, we've never been sales led in any way.
Like I would say like our sales touch point across it 10,000 customers is like maybe a hundred of them have like talked to a, a salesperson when you guys were like presented with the problem of we are building a thing and then we need to get people to use it. What was your, what was your problem approach in that for me, it was like, I had net, it was like, from a personal point of view, it was like, I hate getting on a sales call with people. And so I, I'm not going to do that and that, was just my decision-making process. And now, you know, we're building a sales team and doing all that stuff, but how did you guys approach that?
Jeremiah Prummer (41:34)
Yep.
Rishabh (41:41)
I would actually say we're building all three motions. So it's actually pretty interesting to see how it works. We're building sales led reseller, which is agency, and then also self-serve. And I would say that actually the biggest decision that you need to make when you're trying to decide which one of these three paths to go down is does the customer... need to talk to a salesperson to use the product.
So it has to be driven by the customer perspective, not by the company perspective, which is like, is this product either not obvious, not clear, not yet ready enough? Like those are all reasons why the customer wouldn't need to talk to a salesperson, right?
Or like in enterprise world, it's like, Hey, there's just like no way that I'm going to buy something without talking to someone first, because I don't even know like whether the single support the constraints of my enterprise. and so the, like, that is how you should make the decision. not like what does the company want to do? Like the company should be irrelevant to the sales because like the sales motion is basically like, how do you go to market? And so it must be dictated by them.
It must not be dictated by...
Jeremiah Prummer (42:59)
Yeah. And one thing I think that's really interesting there is then your pricing model has to align with that too. like, and, you know, when you talk about sales, if you have a product that requires sales, you have to price it in such a way that you can actually afford to sell it. Like there's a, it's, it's just much more expensive to sell something that requires sales. Right. Whereas if you've got something that's self-serve, you can price it differently because you don't necessarily need somebody to, to go through the process and get on a call.
And there's also like a bit of a, there's a cycle there too, right? Where it's like, if it's more expensive, you also need more sales. The more that you need sales, the more like you have to charge for it. Like there's a, and then on the flip side too, you have that with self-service, like, well the last involvement you need. That like on the no side, we have always been self-serve, but with the option of sales, essentially, if that makes sense.
So like most people self-serve, but some set of people will opt to have a sales call. And really that's a demo. It's literally like, Hey, does this thing solve what I need? And usually it's one or two calls with somebody. Sometimes it's more than that, but typically it's one or two calls, call it 30 to 60 minutes of like time spent with a customer, making sure that this is going to solve their use cases. And then we get, we win that customer.
And so that's been historically the approach that we've had. And so what's interesting is in that context, you're actually looking for how do I make self-service easier? Because that then reduces the time that I need people involved. It allows for an easier process for those who do self-select, because a lot of them do, and it ultimately results in increased conversion rates for that type of person and all of that.
Whereas on the sales side, then like you almost go the opposite direction. feel like if you're really leaning into sales where it's like, okay, we actually don't care as much about the ease of use for somebody because in that context, like we're going to have people support them in that. we're going to like, it's just a different mindset.
So we're kind of, I would say we're actually trying to do both as well. Like we're really trying to lean more into self-serve and also more into an enterprise sort of approach. Cause there are brands out there that are like, Hey, I just want you to do everything for us. We have a brand that came to us a few months ago and they said, Hey, can you guys just do all of this?
Like we'll pay you a premium to, manage all of it for us. And we're like, well, we've been thinking about that. So sure, we'll do it. And that's ultimately the, the route I think is it's like, okay, you got some people who are functionally, it's the same product, but either you do it yourself and you pay us a couple hundred dollars a month, or we do it for you and you pay us a few thousand dollars a month. And I think what's also the one thing that I found really interesting too is...
Rishabh (45:44)
We should talk about it separately, but few thousand sounds like too little.
Jeremiah Prummer (45:47)
It probably is. It depends on what you're doing, right? And how much of it you can actually automate as well. The answer on that right now is nothing is automated. yeah, there's an, the other thing that's been interesting too is I would say 80 % of our revenue is actually built around a single use case, even though our platform is capable of doing. Yeah. And that, and what's interesting though is like, if you don't charge more and you don't push people to do more.
Zach Murray (45:48)
Thank
Rishabh (46:08)
That's exactly why you need to charge more. That's exactly why you need to charge more.
Jeremiah Prummer (46:17)
They focus on the single use case and it's actually not as valuable of a product. So that's been a massive challenge for us. And that's why we are really looking at going the two directions of like, okay, well, for the person who wants one use case, how do we make it as easy as possible for them to do that one thing? For the person who wants a holistic business solution, how do we make it?
As easy as possible to get that one thing. And ultimately that means us basically supporting you in a lot of that probably, or at least like structuring the pricing in such a way where you're incentivized to actually use the things that are in our platform. And the irony is like that sometimes that means actually like charging more to your point to actually like get people to use those things. If I charge you for it, you're actually more likely to use it than if I give it to you for free, which is an interesting dichotomy.
Zach Murray (47:02)
Product adoption, like new feature product adoption amongst the customers, even the ones that love you, I think is one of the hardest things with software. Like I even know for myself, anecdotally, the moment I signed up for something and then I start using it for something, I've compartmentalized it in my brain. So with like concrete barriers that even when products launch things that I need or would be very helpful.
Jeremiah Prummer (47:11)
Thank
Zach Murray (47:28)
It's almost like I've already felt the relief of understanding the tool and using it for a thing and making the decision to go back through that pain state of recategorizing that product or that company of whatever I use them for. And then learning the new thing. I'm almost like, you know, I, it's like, push it aside. Like, and I'm like, I put it like, that'd be really cool one day, but it's like, it's almost like second buying journey, even if they don't need to spend more.
So it is very, it's very interesting. We have a new product coming out in April. And like part of me is like, I want to give like some sort of free version of this to everybody. and just like, you know, you can play around with it and I'm like, it would be great if this many thousands of people can start using it. But there's another part of me that knows it's like, if I don't put this behind some sort of upgrade wall, there isn't going to be any urgency to like get in there and use it. And so it's actually a decision I'm trying to make right now, but yeah, new product adoption adoption amongst an existing software, like I never, I didn't, I never expected how hard that was going to be.
Jeremiah Prummer (48:33)
Yeah, that's a really interesting point. It's almost like you have to force them to hang. yeah. Yeah.
Rishabh (48:33)
Yeah. Guys, I'm going to see you in the next week's one. I really got to run, but dude,
Zach Murray (48:38)
Peace.
Rishabh (48:41)
I'm excited to dig in more. See y'all.
Zach Murray (48:43)
Peace out.
Jeremiah Prummer (48:43)
Yeah, sounds good.
Jack (48:44)
Appreciate you Rishabh.
Jeremiah Prummer (48:46)
Actually love that. It's a really good point. Like there's a, you almost have to force a new buying pattern there in order for people to actually use it.
Jack (48:53)
I thought you said something really interesting, Jeremiah, about how much of it is automated, none of it. I was thinking, you guys are building software. Isn't a huge amount of this automated? And then that point where it stops being automated and you require service is the gap in integration between your different products, where the user has to come in and start actually using it as a tool. You built the hammer. It's their job to swing it.
But there are software tools out there. And your tool, Zach's tool, that a fair amount of it is automated. At the click of a button, it's done. So it's interesting. And I can totally understand why a brand would come to whether it's no, it's stamped, it's a foreplay and the new product and say, hey, I want this thing to do it all for me because that's why I'm getting software so I can solve these problems in a quicker, faster way.
Jeremiah Prummer (49:46)
Yeah, that is interesting actually. Cool. Well, thank you. Yep.
Zach Murray (49:50)
All right, should we wrap it up? So the first episode, if anybody made..
Jack (49:52)
Yeah, it was fun, guys.
Zach Murray (49:54)
It to the end, thank you. Subscribe or add it to your playlist or do whatever you do with podcasts. And we're going to try to stick to this.
Jeremiah Prummer (49:56)
Yeah, absolutely.
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Watch the first episode right now on Spotify or YouTube.
Head of Marketing
